I would say the conversation is opening up, albeit slowly. I think we all realize how important the coding aspect is, but we are steady coming to the realization that we need to put more emphasis on culture.

It doesn't matter how fantastic a codebase is if the culture around it stays stagnant and intolerant to anyone that doesn't have the same philosophical posture of the person who created it.

It doesn't matter if we're going to keep repeating the same stupid mistakes.

Honestly, I would say coders should not lead the effort for building community. Having a slick set of features and tools should not define the efficacy of a community that is dependent on a people who don't give a shit about these things.

Do they matter? Of course, but most people don't care about how cool a feature or tool is.

They just want it to work. They want to be safe. They don't want to be harassed.

I have yet to see any coder lead initiative takes this seriously.

@Are0h In Scrum you're supposed to have a product owner, who doesn't have to be (probably shouldn't be) a programmer. It seems like this structure lends itself well to not being coder-led, though it doesn't seem to work out that way much of the time because I don't think coders take that role sufficiently seriously.

@freakazoid This is a good point. A lot of code head have a hard time understanding their role as part of team.

Good projects aren't built in vacuum. This is a hard transition for a lot of programmers that are used to being isolated because no one understands what they are doing.

This is a hard bridge to gap b/c most people aren't going to understand programming, which leads to an under appreciation of that as well.

It's a hard balance to find.

@Are0h And even when the feedback is there it seems like it's likely to be ignored. Things like theming always come later if at all, and they're limited in what they can change.

I think this is a place where a different kind of application distribution could potentially help. The Smalltalk model in particular, or something like it since I don't really understand it that well: focus on APIs and give people a lot of control over the frontend.

@Are0h Of course, this doesn't help with architecture, since it's not just about giving people control over aesthetics, as we're seeing with the #ForkOff movement.

@freakazoid It doesn't, but it should. Design just isn't for the front end, which is what a lot of programmer miss. There is so much value in establish the visual flow of data so it makes sense to _everyone_ not just a guy sitting in a dark room.

One project I worked, I literally designed the whole API flow document so everyone could see how the system functioned and it made everything so much easier.

Design should be involved at at all steps. It really helps.

@Are0h I was thinking more just giving control to the user. In the case of, say, ActivityPub, as we've seen giving too much control to the subscriber at least is harmful. But in this case it's because the supposed control given to the publisher is just advisory.

@freakazoid Ideally, that's what APIs were supposed to be. Unfortunately we don't see many places implementing this division of labor, which is a shame.

And yeah, hard agree. I think we're seeing this play out a lot in the FOSS community where we see so many great idea coming out, but they look like shit and are hard to use.

I believe we're just seeing the limits of having programmers lead projects. They have their weakness just like everyone else.

@Are0h We had it at CouchBase, but the product owner and the CPO were both white men, as were most of our customers, so we weren't going to do anything interesting with that.

@freakazoid Yeah, it's a culture thing. It's hard because you have to think about it from the beginning and most white guys aren't going to do that.

What they don't realize is that they're literally building in a limitation to how good their product can be by not considering it.

As someone that picked up programming on their own, the ability to create something from nothing is very powerful. I can understand why coders think they should lead.

But this is just myopia. If you're just building something for yourself, that's fine, but if you're building some for other people, it _must_ be a collaborative effort with people that are not like you.

And I think we've seen enough platforms built from a singular experience and perspective.

@Are0h coding is like getting the garden set up; you put work down to get the seeds sprouting and the shade just right and the water flow okay, but when you're not looking, birds are gonna pick out the seeds, squirrels are gonna dig at the roots, deer will come in and trample everything to gnaw off the buds. and then you gotta think: did i make this garden just to grow myself some potatoes, or do i want to have a yard full of other lives that share my space?

@modgethanc That's a great analogy. Building great projects is very very similar that process.

@Are0h these are things I've learned from writing programs, managing teams, and alao gardening :)

@modgethanc Hard agree on everything. Just a beautiful observation.

@Are0h and then you figure out how to get the clover patch to take over a corner so the rabbits have something good to gnaw on, and you put up a fence around just your own tomato plants to ask the deer to leave them be, and you realize that the birds are actually picking worms off the kale, and actually life is more fun when you spend all your garden time troubleshooting for everyone that shows up, not just trying to defend what you thought it was supposed to be when you started

@Are0h seasons pass and you realize you've been reading about permaculture and trying to maintain native weeds to help out the pollenators and you've torn up all the grass and you recognize individual squirrels that like to hang out and heckle the chipmunk nest and long story short, you started out trying to build something according to your vision but as other people use it, you learned that there are things it could be that you never thought of, and isn't it this beautiful

@Are0h This part always stumps me. I grew up weird, with few "like me". If I made stuff, i had to be clear who it was for and what they wanted. This code/culture problem is everywhere, yes, but it's such hubris.

Clearly, there was a time when people expected computers to be magic and people had to push back and make the code and process more central and important. it seems that this could be the end result of that dynamic, as a historical trend. Too far now, though. Thoughts?

@c25l_ I mean, yeah I agree. Computers have become such an integral part of our lives, they are more like tools.

I think our progress with them is dependent on more people understanding them so we can get more ideas into the pool rather than keeping this mystique around them as if it is knowledge only a few people can have.

@Are0h A coder's singular vision does not scale.

@bstacey

Great quote.

@Are0h

@RussSharek @Are0h Thank you! ⭐️

@Are0h Kind of how they realized that most of the psychology studies heavily favored graduate students and college students way of thinking; because they didn't go off campus much to get more opinions / insight

https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/psychology-studies-biased-toward-we-10-08-07/.

@Are0h When I was at Facebook, a bunch of us built a web site for Yes We Code. We had two Black coders on the team, but if I recall correctly they were both working on backend stuff. One piece of feedback we got was "it's very white." It took me a second to figure out what we meant, because the interface was literally white. That was an eye-opening moment for me. You mean different people like different aesthetics⁉

@freakazoid Ha, this is one of the reasons I don't like bootstrap frameworks.

I don't want everything looking the same. There are so many styles out there. Let's explore and apply them to see what works.

But you have to actually hire people that understand the intersection of culture and style.

The tech industry has never been good at this.

@Are0h an interesting implication from creating culture from code is the way that code has built-in hierarchies and levels that make no sense on a community level. Let's take masto as an example!

- The person who setup an instance is its admin, in a technical sense
- a technical admin is *also* the most powerful "institution" — simply due to the power of execution "vested" in them
- the admin can delegate some their power (while keeping all of it!) to moderators — they chose!

@Are0h this means that the builders are the mayors, whether they want to, or are capable of being mayors.
and, again, regardless of their capabilities, they chose other officers to execute their policies

now, given what we know from tech, the builders are not the most socially capable…
…and even so, what we know from social sciences, they will still chose moderators who are close to them (and probably equally socially capable…)

@Are0h i think that's a bad dynamic, and i wish we could stop it.

@hirojin I think we can, but we have to examine how instances are getting set up in the first place. Is it just one person or a collective of people.

In terms of a person setting up an instance, sure a lot of those points you bring up are at play.

Conversely, being an admin is just role if you look at it from the context of it serving the interests of a community. There's no reason why that role cannot be distributed to multiple people.

But that's a culture thing.

@Are0h *nod *nod *nod

@Are0h "it makes that much more difficult for non white people and women to even start building anything."

Wait, this just doesn't align with reality. A lot of programmers come from India and China, and presumably they became technically proficient while living there, and not immediately after being hired into US tech companies for no reason.

Speaking for myself, even if you're not rich but have regular access to a computer, nothing can stop you from tinkering if you love it.

@isagalaev Huh? Because there are a couple of non white people from other countries that get hired by tech companies, that immediately eliminates historical socioeconomic inequality trends in the States?

I think you need to take a step back and think about what you're saying.

@Are0h 1) I was pointing out a specific inconsistency, not implying your entire argument is wrong.
2) There's evidently much more than "a couple" of non-white people from other countries.
3) Please refrain from advising me to "step back and think", it's disrespectful.

(Sorry for being terse, I'm on the run.)

@isagalaev 1. There is no 'specific inconsistency' if you take social economic realities in context. You're ignoring that, which means you're talking from subjective anecdotes, not 'reality' which you ironically mention.

2. Ha, you're being obtuse. The context I'm talking from is clear.

3. Wait so asking you to reconsider what you're saying is 'disrespecful'? Ha, really?

If you don't like what I say, cool, but your feelings and anecdotes aren't a compelling response.

@isagalaev @Are0h I think you're conflating access with proficiency. Sure, if someone is infinitely curious they can start to learn computers. There's never been a better time to do so. But if you don't have regular access to a computer, or access to the Internet / documentation, or an understanding of what the capabilities of the machine are then you'll have a harder time learning.

@craigmaloney @Are0h agreed. Access is one thing, but without proactive mentorship involving underrepresented classes of beginners we won't solve the problem.

@isagalaev @craigmaloney There is already plenty of mentorship in under represented groups. Yes, non-whtie people know now to use computers too, so no, that is not the problem.

The problem is that there have always been barriers for people who are not white who want to get involved with the greater tech community. Again, there is plenty of documentation that details this.

The idea that non-white persons aren't putting in the work is ignorant and offensive to the point of comedy.

@Are0h don't deny there are bigots in tech, but there are bigots everywhere, and my take is the majority of them came in with the #Web2.0 corporatization, beginning in the late 90s. I read a really good blog by an #OldSchool female coder, bemoaning the myth that #hacker culture was for white, middle class, cis dudes before the identitarian heroes showed up to make them be diverse. Sadly I can't find it right now, but this piece covers similar ground
https://status451.com/2016/11/06/exclusive-inclusivity/

@Are0h also, this gave me pause for thought.
"people who do seek political victory should encourage the off-putting weirdness of the other side. Hysterical feminists are good for Republicans, and anti-abortion fanatics are good for Democrats. These fringe movements aren't going to succeed, but they may be able to make their allies fail."
http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2007/08/inessential_wei.html
How many times have I done damage to a causes I support by overplaying my hand, or berating people in place of dialogue?

@strypey Well, I would say most people who want equality don't really care about a political victory, so you are talking about a specific demographic.

And it's interesting that they world 'hysterical' is used as inequality such as sexism has some very real consequences for it's victims. It's like saying a drowning person is hysterical when talking about water.

The 'damage' that is caused by hurting ones feelings is insignificant to the damage bigotry continues to cause.

@Are0h you've seriously never come across anyone who's been "hysterical" in their advocacy for something? Maybe from over-enthusiasm, or maybe from unresolved mental health issues, or maybe even because they're not actually on the side of the cause they are "advocating" for (#AgentsProvocateur are a thing)? Lucky you.

@strypey Of course I have, but in terms of inequality and how it affects people's lives, I can understand why people get emotional about it. I wouldn't call that hysterical.

You are free to speculate on whatever that is, but in my experience it's typically not any of those things. The labels you use are usually the markers of people that choose to not understand the problem.

And I don't believe in luck.

@Are0h you are free to make whatever assumptions you like about my motives. I'm not responsible for those.

@strypey Agreed. I just listen to what people say and how they say it.

That's usually all it takes to see the context they are speaking from.

@strypey No one is denying bigots are everywhere, so that point is irrelevant.

Second no one has said that hacker culture is for middle class white dudes. However, that is what it has become, and more importantly, people are fighting to keep it that way.

The culture in tech of white folks fighting to keep it a white male bastion is a microcosm of the overall culture in the States to the unearned advantage of whiteness in place.

Tech _should_ be more diverse. That's the issue.

@Are0h this seems to be a popular story. Again, I think problems endemic to *corporate* culture are being blamed on hacker culture. Some people are putting a lot of effort into trying to change corporate tech culture, and good on them. My solution is for hackers to take tech back from corporations. As the USAmerican exceptionalism *yawn*. Your country is not the world (thankfully). Love from China.

@strypey You can think whatever you like, but the reality is that tech cultures, no matter corporate or independent do not operate in a vacuum. They are enabled by the societies and cultures they inhabit. If you want to parse that out for the sake of your point, cool, but in terms of talking about the culture itself, both are at play wether you want to acknowledge it or not.

LOL, no one said anything about the US being the world. The point is irrelevant.

@Are0h
"no one said anything about the US being the world"

You said:
"The culture in tech of white folks fighting to keep it a white male bastion is a microcosm of the overall culture in the States to the unearned advantage of whiteness in place."

This comment assumes that #hacker culture, and internet culture in general, although global, is a "microcosm of the overall culture in the States". Thus my reply.

@strypey Nah, you're _assuming_ that's what it means for the same of your reply. Ha, in no way does that statement remotely imply the States represents the planet.

It is clearly talking about culture in the States, which is the perspective I usually speak from.

Any other inference you get from it is one you have imagined.

@Are0h also this:
"The culture in tech of white folks fighting to keep it a white male bastion"
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
As I said, I accept that there are some individuals for whom this is a goal. Pidgeon-holing people as suspected bigots if they express any scepticism whatsoever about *strategy* and *tactics* proposed for improving inclusion, is intellectually lazy.

@Are0h After all, how do I prove I'm not a witch?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-

@strypey LOL, no one said you were 'witch'.

That's the part you seem to keep missing for whatever reason.

@Are0h look, we seem to have got off on the wrong foot here. Which is a shame, since you've raised some really crucial issues for how we increase the overlap between the #SoftwareFreedom and #PeerProduction movements, and other activists movements concerned with #HumanRights, #Sustainability, #EconomicDemocracy and so on, and make sure that overlap is mutually beneficial. My intention was to engage constructively, but I seem to got a bit distracted.

@Are0h is it ok if we back up, and have another go at this, hopefully without raising each other's hackles? :-&

@strypey *shrugs* You can call it whatever makes you feel better, but I don't 'pidgeon hole' anyone. I have no need to do that because culture is what it is.

I have no issue with one's skepticism, but it's not hard to tell where that comes from in a society that favors keeping inequality in place.

I would say ignoring that context to perform remaining objective is lazy. At best.

It just is what it is, dude. When people show me what they are, I believe them. Simple.