Please stop using data mining scandals 2 redefine ur own predatory version of consent. Being in a public space is not consenting to be mugged no more than posting in a public space is consenting to have your data stolen. My purse doesn’t suddenly become EVERYBODY’s purse when I leave the house. We need a new bill of data/privacy rights. Will this end all mining 4evs? No, but reclassifying women as citizens instead of domestic property didn’t end all gender violence either.

@denikombucha I wonder how much of this stems from computing security work normalizing obsessive breaching of as many boundaries as possible b/c that's what attackers would do over computers, assisted by computers that instantly perform countless actions.

@bb010g this isn’t anything new tbh. Enslaved ppl, Women, children etc were all a spectrum of private property in the US. Who defended those classifications then? The folks that had the most to gain by exploiting these communities as you would resources. Whenever cases of redifining agency and personhood vs natural resource the exact same arguments coming up now were presented then.-

@bb010g Women voting & controlling their own money won’t stop domestic violence, it’s up to her to only marry honorable men in the first place.
It’s impossible to free ALL enslaved Black people, by the one drop rule and serial rapist ancestors & families we’re ALL kinda black🤷🏼‍♂️nah too complicated makes no sense.
No point ending child labor here, they’ll just bring in foreign children instead.

@bb010g one last note cuz I LOVE Arundhati Roy and this quote says a lot about the culture of industry

"Can you not just look at the mountains? Can you just leave the bauxite in the mountains? - Arundhati Roy

@denikombucha it's probably worth asking these people how they feel about the user of facial recognition in public spaces.

I can see the point maybe that is being attempted: being in public is no guarantee people will behave ethically. Still, there *are* ethics to these sort of things. I don't think this study business passes that test.

@genericperson if ending 99.95% conflicts a bill is targeting was the gateway to law, literally nothing would be passed then/now or ever. Anyone realistically making THAT goal post is just being self servingly hyperbolic. Hospitals don’t indefinitely stop death and don’t even guarantee ending malpractice, are they advocating defunding Medicare 🤨? Why is the goal post for ethical software regulation it’s ability to never fail ever?

@denikombucha I agree, it shouldn't be legal or OK to do this! But imo we should also be on our guard when posting public toots because unfortunately it's just too easy to do this, legal or not :/

@denikombucha I'm shocked at how many people I've seen with dubious views on consent on the timeline since this blew up. I expected maybe a few that haven't mulled on it particularly deeply yet, but not this many. Pretty gross, and I'm noticing it's mostly smug nerds (likely) without much to lose from it too

@Shrigglepuss @denikombucha Thank you for reminding me of the word consent.

I had lost a thought I needed to write down while taking a break, and it just came back to me.

@maloki @Shrigglepuss @denikombucha every time this type of mess comes up, i am reminded that Model View Culture had written about it five years ago:

and many more in other issues

i miss mvc.

@Shrigglepuss @denikombucha yes! The number of damn techbros going "hur hur you fools, we're on the internet" in my mentions right now :/

@puffinus_puffinus @denikombucha "we're on the internet so the concept of consent, privacy and etiquette differs from outdoors" is a rancid take

Wow, this thread is really something. Am I getting this right - If anyone questions your hot take about posting your data publically on the internet, we're smug nerds or techbros?

Do you not see the problem with your take at all?

Good luck with your campaign to suggest publishing publicly on the internet has some kind of implicit contractual obligation for anyone reading it.
@puffinus_puffinus @denikombucha

@Kinetix @denikombucha @puffinus_puffinus the point that we could instead be encouraging people to have better respect for other people's selves and presence in public spaces without taking more of them then they've already signed up to instead of copping out and simply fearing technology and eachother is going right over your head huh?

@Shrigglepuss @denikombucha @puffinus_puffinus

This will likely be my last response since it's clear you have a rather aggressive stance toward anyone with a different take on this.

It appears you see the issue as being respectful to someone 'just being in public', essentially. However, posting publicly on the internet is more akin to posting on a billboard - large and for everyone to see. People could be walking around with notepads and jotting down what's on the billboards. In this case, it's not like the people with notepads were going up to people hanging out in public at gunpoint demanding all their information.

There may well be problems with the ethics behind this ill-deduced 'study', but I don't find it at all surprising. I would also suggest that depending on how you handle/react to these cases may well just cause the only future groups that want to be making use of site scrapes will be those who just don't care and won't be telling you.

@puffinus_puffinus @Kinetix @Shrigglepuss what a coincidence! I was sarcastically ignoring his 8 page screen play he left in this thread😂

@Kinetix @Shrigglepuss @puffinus_puffinus

Nope. A billboard has specific functions & intent 2 garner a monetizable market 2 a business. This falls under FDA regulation & w the intent 4 marketing you can only make certain claims & will be held liable 4 fraud.

A private citizen is not a private business. A public post intent is not 2 draw customers 2 buy a product so we’re not regulated by those gov institutions. I can post “The lotion I use cures cancer!” & b fine.

@denikombucha @Shrigglepuss @puffinus_puffinus You're right - a public post on the internet has much greater visibility than a billboard. If people see it, they see it, it's out there in the open.

@Kinetix @Shrigglepuss @puffinus_puffinus are we still talking abt your wishful lib tech fantasies or actual law because you kno a billboard by a Corp and a sm post by a civilian fall into 2 different legal jurisdictions. Or do u not?

@denikombucha @Shrigglepuss @puffinus_puffinus Sorry, you're referring to the laws of which country? I'm talking about the internet.

@Kinetix @denikombucha @puffinus_puffinus if you're putting it to us that the internet is lawless then a fundamental expectation of all people should include respect for other people's boundaries or is it that consent just isn't important enough to you to respect fully?
Maybe social media isn't the place for you at all if you would prefer to concede to surveillance projects and their disrespect for other people's boundaries. That's what you're selling to us right? Try Signal, be lonely 🤷

@Shrigglepuss @denikombucha @puffinus_puffinus

@BalooUriza Said it really well:

"* Of course it was going to get scraped. Every social network ever gets scraped, broken into or otherwise compromised.

* Either practice good OPSEC or get comfortable with having nothing to hide because it's already out there."

You can lean on GDPR or whatever makes you feel cozy, but it's not going to mean much to bad or ignorant actors, or even people who have no relationship with the GDPR at all.

Has the GDPR been tested outside of the EU yet?

@Kinetix @BalooUriza @denikombucha @puffinus_puffinus we already know this. What we're doing here is holding those actors accountable, exposing them and warning others, discussing boundaries and consent for anyone that needs it and saying that we won't be sitting by and taking it. I'm still not sure what you're saying other than "like it or lump it". What's that attitude going to do? If it feels too futile for you to fight then stop wasting our time by saying it, we disagree so leave us be

@Shrigglepuss @Kinetix @BalooUriza @puffinus_puffinus I think somebody doesn’t necessarily support selling personal info but would like that as a backup career option if his opportunities dry up elsewhere.

@denikombucha Neither. Just been around the web since the early 90s and seen the same shit happen repeatedly.

@BalooUriza you kno the rest of us grew up w the internet too right? Its only *been* around since 1990, It’s not like folks were driving their zeppelins & jalopies listening to Pod casts🤨

@denikombucha The internet's been around a couple decades longer than you think it has.

@BalooUriza you kno I’m talking about the modern form we recognize as the internet we use today don’t be obtuse🙄

@denikombucha I'm not going to dumb it down for folks who thought AOL was a good idea.

Show more

@Kinetix @Shrigglepuss @BalooUriza @puffinus_puffinus Lmao you can lean on petty shit like “The Rule of Law” and Government institutions if that makes you comfortable 🤣🤣🤣

@denikombucha @Shrigglepuss @BalooUriza @puffinus_puffinus That's the opposite of the intent of the message, but I don't get the feeling that you have any genuine intentions with your discourse.

@Kinetix @denikombucha @puffinus_puffinus I don't have an ego inflated so big to think if I'm having a nice time talking with my friends in the park that it's akin to writing what I'm saying in big letters on a billboard...
I'm just trying to hang out here with my friends and allow other *individuals* to come and go as they please, I don't remember consenting to somebody coming along with a notebook or whatever to take back to the lab. That's a *certain* problem with ethics, not a "may well be"

@Shrigglepuss @denikombucha @puffinus_puffinus If you're talking with your friends in a park, there's a limitation to how far your conversation goes - let's say due to the technology you're using to communicate. Your voice travelling only a few feet and it's not retained anywhere. When you post publicly on the internet, you're publishing information, it's not at all private or limited to the range of your friends. It's open to the world and can spread farther and wider than you believe is possible.

On the internet, or, more specifically in a setup like the fediverse, if you want your conversation to be private with your friends, you have to work to ensure the visibility is set as such - and even then, if a friend reshares something publicly, it could still go further.

@Kinetix @denikombucha @puffinus_puffinus Please don't insult us by explaining what a social network is. I'm fairly sure, what with us being on a social network right now, we know that it's a communications platform for individuals to interact amongst each other. That's why we're here.
Mass surveillance and redistributed copies outside of the network of the data we put into it isn't using it for the purposes we consented to and we're here calling that out.
I dunno what your problem is here teach

@Shrigglepuss @denikombucha @puffinus_puffinus You got a copy of the agreement you've made that says your data is to be contained somewhere, not to be distributed beyond some limit that public posting doesn't really determine?

@Kinetix @denikombucha @puffinus_puffinus by using the platform in the way it's designed that's assumed. The GDPR protects me from misuse beyond that

@Kinetix @Shrigglepuss @denikombucha @puffinus_puffinus It's crazy how relevant this old post is...

Also maybe carry through your analogies a bit more thoroughly. With the amount of noise on the internet, calling posts equivalent to billboards is patently ridiculous. It's way closer to personal conversations that just happen to be kinda loud, long lasting and searchable as text strings.

@redpy5 @Shrigglepuss @denikombucha @puffinus_puffinus I'm sorry, I just don't agree that public posts made on the internet have anywhere near the same sort of range-defined expectations as a nearly-private conversation, whether that conversation is in a park between two people, or on the telephone, or even in email. It's is a publicly published bit of data.

Do you remove you public posts as soon as the threads are over?

@Kinetix @Shrigglepuss @denikombucha @puffinus_puffinus It's almost like they are their own new form of communication that should be treated with nuance as we address what is and isn't consent... And honestly, if you can't distinguish between the intent of the author of this content, whether they want something more ephemeral and private or public and forever, then I don't really trust you with telling the intent of the party who will get there hands on this easily queryable list of minorites. Can you at least attempt to see it from the perspective of bad actors so as to thwart them proactivity?

@Kinetix @Shrigglepuss @denikombucha @puffinus_puffinus Like it's sounds like you'd be okay with people using surveillance equipment on public meeting spaces and that also worries me. Is that your position?

@redpy5 @Shrigglepuss @denikombucha @puffinus_puffinus
I think that may exactly be the point - how are you going to thwart bad actors proactively? You'll drive some underground, perhaps, and maybe smarten up some non-bad actors, but I think relying on the notion of consent to keep you safe from data that is published to the whole wide world is possibly not going to work out too well in the long run.

@Kinetix @denikombucha @puffinus_puffinus @redpy5 using the recent example, once the information about the redistributed poorly anonymised data was exposed people banded together and got it took down, there's one piece of proactiveess that worked better than your proposed "do nothing it'll never change anyway". Side-effects during the whole thing has been a discussion on consent, a lot of us learned a lot of new things?? Sounds a good start to me

@Kinetix @Shrigglepuss @puffinus_puffinus @redpy5

We’ll never catch all child abusers. Let’s over turn Rights of the Child laws and just give every minor a glock. I agree.

Sign in to participate in the conversation
Social @ PV

The social network of the future: No ads, no corporate surveillance, ethical design, and decentralization! Own your data with Mastodon!