At this point, I think we can all agree Pleroma is a social media platform built specifically for white nationalists.

It has intentionally positioned itself as a primary alternative option for hateful people that have been pushed off of Birdland, FB, etc etc.

I would not be surprised if you see them on the news in the near future as a flash point for organization for premeditated attacks against social groups they hate.

That platform has consistently catered to the worst people.

Having led a few teams in my day, I can say for a fact Pleroma's attitude is an extension of who leads that project. As the saying goes, attitude reflects leadership.

It's not magic Pleroma is so friendly with Gab aligned instances. Bigots feel comfortable using and contributing too that project.

And that's intentional. I don't give a shit how well built it may or may not be.

It has been used to make not only fedi and the world in general an unsafer and more hateful place.

@Are0h Pleroma is also substantiating Google's claim that all ActivityPub clients are spreading hate and misinfo, which, should be obvious how that'd come back to bite Mastodon instances.

@greatjoe Google is only doing it to protect their business interests, but they're not wrong.

This has been a problem for awhile now and little to nothing has been done about it.

@Are0h I'm also a bit suspicious of the fact that Gab instances are actively policed but we're still looking at Pleroma instances on a case-by-case basis.

They've had their chance, admins should have the option to blanket-ban all Pleroma instances, and that ban should be on by default.

@greatjoe The fedi has unending patience for racists and sexists, even violent ones that have made it clear they only care about causing harm.

This has been a problem since I've gotten on the fedi almost 3 years ago. Little to nothing has been done, but folks are lamenting the fediverse's reputation as a place that caters to hate speech.

@Are0h yeah, I have been looking at federated more often lately and found a number of new ones (to me, at least) to block and recommend blocks to others. It's really sadly very predictable. A lot of the Pleroma apologists argue that it's a "better" platform than mainline Mastodon, but as we've often seen that a majority of its users and admins end up being racists and bigots, it's demonstrably not "better." Thus I'm not sure why people would want to use it if they're not racist bigots.

@greyor I checked out their dev community for a little while and when you see how they operate and talk to each other, you can see why Plemora came to be favored by hateful people.

You can't control how people use free software but you can set an environment that makes it clear it's not an acceptable form of behavior.

Plemora's leadership had done the opposite and welcomed the most hateful people on the web.

@Are0h that is unsurprising as well. Yeah, absolutely agree that the culture has to be antiracist &c. and ban hateful people.

Thanks as always for your insights, I appreciate it and am always learning.

@Are0h @greyor this is extremely precise observation. Even at times with kaniini the dev team just did not set the bar. "I only had great interactions with them as maintainers" people say but as people they are also extremely nice to fash.
I know couple of genuinely great pleroma instances (mostly single-user) but this doesn't cancel the dev team being what they are.

@charlag @Are0h That quote reeks of "both-sides"-ism (not on your part but on whoever said that). I've had the opposite experience; the single-user ones seem to be especially pernicious. It's something we all have to be vigilant about, and just call it out whenever we see it, loudly.

@greyor I don't want to speak for @charlag but I think his experience might be close to mine: most pleroma instances I've run across have been awful. the one or two that aren't awful were single-user instances, though there were plenty awful single-user instances as well

@balrogboogie @charlag I imagine there are some outliers that aren't awful, but it boils down to that the common denominator seems to be, in most cases, Pleroma...

@greyor @Are0h it is better from a technical standpoint. the worst people have taken to it though

@bamfic @Are0h precisely the point both of us were trying to make -- the worst people have coopted it, so it doesn't matter whether it's technically better or not. That is immaterial to me. The worst people have taken to it, the devs don't seem to care, and therefore I don't want to associate with instances (and people) that use it.

@greyor @Are0h I say that somewhat sarcastically because it's no small feat, but also, maybe it's not. I'd be happy to either fund or contribute work to someone who wanted to fork it with a "no racists" license.

@greyor @bamfic @Are0h I do not have a server that can run Mastodon, but I do have quite a load of devices that might run Pleroma. Just some sidenote, I am not disagreeing with your observation here. Not wanting to run that software is also, why I am on a Mastodon instance that I do not self-host. But I can see that people who want to self-host and lack the financial resources for a proper server might want to run Pleroma

@waweic @greyor @bamfic This has nothing to do with anything as this is not a convo about technical motivations about usage. We've had a million people talk about that. We get it.

That's not where the problem with Pleroma lies.

@KitsuneAlicia I'm 99% sure that if he didn't he knew someone who was on that instance.

That's what the place does.

Nazi salute 

@Are0h I've been thinking about transitioning my instance to masto (or even something else if it pops up), but I'm not sure how to do that without losing data.

@brainblasted They purposefully don't make it easy to move your data, so I'm not surprised.

@Are0h @brainblasted Yeah, I gave up on the portability of that data when moving out. I still probably have a backup of the database somewhere but I don't think the effort is worth it.

@Are0h "But what can I use when I need a lightweight ActivityPub server?"

Check out #Epicyon!

@therealraccoon Hell, I didn't now about this.

I'm gonna check it out. Thanks for the tip.

@therealraccoon @Are0h Unfortunately, I have to report that epicyon is not a magic solution. I spent 2 days trying to install and run it and still can't. The install documentation is not super clear and easy to make mistakes at each step.
(though, I can't run masto or pleroma either so it's not better or worse)

@therealraccoon @Are0h We need better onboarding and guidance if we want the fediverse to ever replace facebook... :/

@narF @Are0h I wouldn't have expected it to be "a magic solution," but maybe you can help @bob to improve the documentation?

@therealraccoon @Are0h

Thank you for the alternative. It's pretty clear from this thread I need to get the hell off this software for my single-user instance ASAP.
@Are0h but wouldn't that be true for all of the ActivityPub world, including Mastodon?
@Are0h I mean how do you hold Pleroma and Mastodon apart? There was Gab before and there were right-wing Mastodon servers.
@Are0h weeb twitter (elixir edition) has made the word more unsafe (tm)

jokes aside, i think you might be reading too much into it? like, i don't like some of the people that develop, but free software is what you make of it

pleroma offers both the tools to be an edgelord free-speech yadayada place and an ultra-locked down place a la the most restrictive masto instances. as for being an alternative for "hateful" people, i think it mostly positions itself as an alternative to mastodon and misskey. i've seen no evidence, "official" or otherwise, that it aims to capture any specific audience

i think this is actually a mistake people make a lot, pleroma in and of itself has no culture or whatever - so seeing "them" on the news would be tough considering it's not any sort of unified thing. any instance that facilitates messaging can potentially facilitate action of the kind you suggest- mastodon included.

all in all, we _REALLY_ need to drop this tribalism based on software. most of us dislike the same group of users, and as a _network_ we need to create ways to filter them out

@FloatingGhost Ah and the predictable bigot trying to convince me that the racism I experience on a regular basis is not actually racism.

LOL, classy.

@Are0h eh what? i said nothing about any specific instance or even general actions and if they were or were not racism?

my take was one purely from software and official communications? i'm trying to be here in good faith but ok...

@FloatingGhost It is the opposite of good faith to not only completely ignore the context of what I'm saying but to suggest it's possible that I'm imagining the experiences I've been having since I set up my own instance.

I'm talking about how a specific platform caters to the most hateful people on the web. That's the context.

I have no interest in your reductive attempts to derail that conversation.

@Are0h my dude, i really want to co-operate with you here, we're a federated network, it's in my best interest to not antagonise you in any way

i just wanted to give you my take and suggest an alternative point of view

i really really don't want to be mean but the way you're putting your responses makes me rather... idk, unsurprised that people aren't always nice? you come across as HIGHLY combative, and whilst you might see that as justified, it really threw me and i don't know how i'm supposed to be constructive in any way

my take is as such:
- there are awful people on pleroma
- there are awful people on mastodon
- therefore we cannot make a software implies awful people connection

once again, i have not once suggested that anything did not happen to you

@FloatingGhost LOL, you're talking about not being nice and I'm talking about consistent racism and violence being thrown my way. We're not talking about the same things.

We cannot have a 'constructive' conversation because you keep trying to interpret what I'm saying in a way that makes you feel better rather than attempting to hear a perspective that does not resemble yours.

If me not letting you derail what I'm saying is COMBATIVE to you, that says everything about your intentions.

@Are0h very well your highness, i am deeply sorry for enquiring as to thine train of thought and so thoughtlessly throwing thine precious thread space to the wind like so much ash

from your humble servant who has no opinion for it would not be allowed by his highness

@FloatingGhost LOL every response just confirms your attempt to engage in bad faith and now you're just throwing a tempter tantrum because I won't play along.

That's comedy.

@Are0h whatever lets you sleep at night

really, if this is how you act at everything, people are going to get annoyed at you very very quickly. and then make jokes at your expense, since your actions are incredibly comical.

i came into this really honestly wanting to put across a different point, but you've honestly made me not want to any more, it's mentally exhausting just trying to read your replies

@FloatingGhost Ah yes, now we've reached Evangelion memes used consistently by the most bigoted and hateful people on the web.

Boring and predictable.

@Are0h you are absolutely insane beyond any reproach
sorry to be the one to break it to you~
@Are0h you're obsessed with getting in the last word and i am going to keep replying so you can't have it

@FloatingGhost Thank you for admitting you're just a piece of shit. I can use this.

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