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I mean... I just think it's funny how white folks are always like GET OVER IT, IT'S THE INTERNET when we get slurs, insults and abuse thrown at us, but will start a Trent Lott like CRUSADE when one suggests they alter their language and pro-noun usage a bit. LOL, they legit act like it's the end of the world.

And don't even get me started on how white people melthdown when they experience 1/100th of the abuse marginalized people endure everyday.

It's not funny... but that's why it's funny.

I remember I had a conversation once with Gargron about how he was catching it from people for his decision making, and he mentioned it was unfair, which I agreed with.

I also told him if he wants to do some real good, you have to accept it and push through to win people's trust. Saying you're about diversity and inclusion isn't enough. You have to prove it everyday.

LOL, he unfollowed me and stopped talking to me after that.

White people want DIVERSITY until they actually have work for it.

The think is white folks think if they mimic the posture of diversity and inclusion it will happen on its own, which is false. It takes real work.

And you can ask any of my mods who I talk with on a regular basis, that this work will take to you some deep places personally and have you re-evaluate you own personal truths about how you view the world. Those are HARD conversations.

And white people in particular exist in a culture that violently resists personal growth at all costs.

@Are0h That does help explain why mediocre self-help gurus can see unexpected success when white people even half-follow their advice.

@jaycie Making white people feel better about their passivity in the face of hate and refusal to grow is a billion dollar industry.

@Are0h I totally endorse this - even though I fall victim to it myself sometimes. (Fuck, a lot, but hopefully less often than I used to.) May I repost this elsewhere? It's a hard pill to swallow, but it's needed.

@Are0h I muted gargron within like a month of joining masto. Transparent af.

@Ethancdavenport The interesting part is that I really don't mind him one on one. I think he's a bright kid that has done some good work.

My issue is that, like most white dudes in tech, he has a very poor reaction when someone suggests that his ideas are probably not the best in terms of community.

And that attitude is what leads to replications of the toxic environments such as FB, Birdland, Reddit, etc.

And that's just bigotry.

@Are0h well, I originally muted him precisely after reading a few interaction threads about community betterment, “censorship,” etc.

and he’s European too right? I’m generally suspicious of white Europeans.

@Ethancdavenport It's funny how even smart people refuse to see the obvious.

But that's what bigotry does.

@Are0h this reminds me of how someone[who?] said,

white people want black art, but they don't want the black artist

@meena Ha, a lot of people have said this, but yeah, it's very true.

That's what happened when I first got to the fedi. Everybody wanted to be cool with me, but once I started talking about the environments they enable that are harmful to people like me, LOL, they got REAL QUIET™

@Are0h that's what's bothered me the most about Kev's position. Every time he talks about it, it's something along the lines of:

"I'm not a racist or a Nazi, but I'm not willing to go through any effort whatsoever to accommodate marginalized people"

@romariorios Exactly. And these are the same people that complain about how hard it is to have honest conversations on the fedi.

They want people to trust them, but have done absolutely nothing to earn that trust

@Are0h wonder what folks would do if the race card wasn’t so freely available. Maybe engage in thought provoking conversation that has a little depth? Maybe? Maybe not?

@GLove LOL, the irony of this statement is hilarious.

Thanks you for revealing you're just a bigot looking for trouble.

Enjoy your day.

@Are0h ay lmao
that's why I say I'm not white, I'm just pale

@Are0h the only legit use of the word "snowflake" is now as reference to the White Fragility of the freeze peachers and similar crowds.

@Pyretta @Are0h I live in Finland, so I don't mention that... too many months per year are spent at the mercy of that shit :)

@Are0h You're not even exaggerating! They legitimately say things like...

"If we do this, where does it end? At this rate I'll get arrested for accidentally doing a racism or misgendering someone! This will be the END OF CIVILIZATION."

Looking at you, Jordan Peterson.

@Lexi I just laugh every time I hear that line.

Just don't be dickheads and it's all good. But white folks are obsessed with trying to be assholes without consequence.

But that's just not how it works.

@Are0h Have you read this article on what dueling culture can teach us about taking offense?

aeon.co/essays/what-duelling-c

The "offence as insult" model that it talks about is a really good explanation of how [white folks | men] can tell [POC | women] to grow a thicker skin, and yet are massively thin-skinned about any offense towards themselves. A thick skin is for unequals; people who expect to be respected will have a thin skin.

@gcupc "For men of honour, to be taken seriously when one took offence was a sign of equality."

I love this article.

@gcupc So I found the piece more to be an academic theoretical discussion trying to juxtapose two different contexts together without really understanding the context of marginalized people.

We don't really care about the insults. Personally, I grew up playing games to see who could come up with the most clever insults. That's fine.

What we care is about the violence that is enabled by what the author refers to as offensive speech.

The assumption is they are just words. That is false.

@Are0h So in the article's terminology, you'd advocate an "offence as harm" model, I guess?

@gcupc What I advocate for is not mentioned in the article at all.

I think the piece would be useful if it was just words. That's fine.

But people aren't reacting to insults in and of themselves. It's the violence that these words enable.

The piece doesn't talk about that context at all.

@Are0h Okay fair enough. I do think that the type of offense the author cares about (implying that you are not of equal social value) does slide rather fluidly into violence... or at least into impunity for violence. As with the case of the duc having his lackeys beat up Voltaire.

@gcupc True, but that's a result, not a pre-text.

The context marginalized people work with is what we can't avoid violence no matter what we do, which informs our particular reaction to hate speech, insults, slurs, etc...

That's a fundamental difference between what the author is describing and what is actually happening.

It's an interesting thought, but not really useful in terms of how violence is constantly thrown at us.

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