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I mean... if you're threatened by a Code of Conduct, that pretty much tells people all they need to know about your state of mind concerning basic respect for other people.

If you believe your right to be an asshole without consequence equates to FREEDOM, you're just a bigot.

The math isn't hard on this one.

@somarasu It is, especially considering that meritocracy in tech is an illusion.

And being competent at one's job is not an excuse to be a dickhead. That idea doesn't even make sense.

@somarasu Agreed, because that is some bullshit.

People just want to be assholes, but not be treated as such. As if consequences isn't a real thing.

@somarasu @Are0h

"Civilized behavior" is what's expected of people living in a civilization.

Meritocracy is a dream that would solve many things, like antigravity and FTL travel. Won't ever exist as long as people are involved.

@masterofthetiger Having an aversion to people that mean you harm is common sense, so... ok?

@masterofthetiger And who is being attacked here?

No it isn’t. It’s about people. Anyone can code a project, but it’s collaboration that makes said project more than a collection of lines.

@masterofthetiger I didn't think you were, which is why I asked. And you still haven't answered.

When those beliefs are based around causing harm to someone for what they are and how the identify, yes there should be consequence.

In the real world, people code. And those people come from an innumerable amount of backgrounds. Unfortunately, many groups become targets for privileged people that has nothing to do with their ability to code.

You sound very young and naive.

@masterofthetiger Well, no I general don't feel the need to be 'gracious' to people that try to harm people and who defend that behavior.

That's not 'attacking' anyone. That's common sense.

@masterofthetiger Based on what? Because you feel it did? I could say it seems like you're attacking me, but that would be non-sense.

No document is perfect, so that's fine. As long as we keep moving forward to make communities healthy for everyone, I'm fine with that.

@masterofthetiger I don't care what someone believes. What I care about is the harm people cause based on those beliefs.

I don't give a shit if someone is a good coder if they make a toxic environment for everyone around them. That's not productive either.

Being good at one's craft does not excuse them from basic civility. As a Christian, you yourself follow a Code of Conduct.

In this context, I fail to see why you are obfuscating the issue as you clearly understand the concept.

@masterofthetiger Which is why you ask questions instead of engaging with snide and rude comments.

When you actually talk to people instead of being a dickhead, it works surprisingly well.

@Are0h my personal code of conduct is "do drugs, eat burritos", and i think that's beautiful

@Are0h
You are correct in the logic but I don't think that's what they are protesting. That's not where the problem is.
Is my understanding that the problem relies that the document was poorly written leaving ambiguity and the strong potential to do more harm instead of protecting. It should not be called a Code of Conduct yet but a draft of a CoC that needed competent reviewing and amendments.

@sproid If that was the case, I would not be hearing ridiculous points being made about people losing their FREEDOM because of a CoC.

I understand the work it takes to make an effective one, but there is a lot of bad faith arguments being made against it to protect people's right to be prick with no consequence.

That's what I have a problem with.

@Are0h
I've notice this story has a very different take on every place it's been covered.

@sproid That seems normal as there have been many different reactions being expressed.

@jplebreton As we see in other areas such as politics, it's an ideal rather than a pragmatic notion.

It's not even really about the quality of work, but rather the ability to act however one wants and there not be any repercussions.

It's odd to me how many people in tech really strive to be this rather than just being good at what they do.

@Are0h In theory, a code of conduct may discourage some forms of discussion (e.g. going far off-topic to follow an interesting tangent), or may discourage participation (e.g. individuals with low self-esteem who aren't confident they fit within the target audience, or aren't confident they're qualified to speak on a topic).

It's important to be explicit about the degree of situational flexibility that can be expected from staff, and to be clear about the rationale behind apparent subjectivity.

@gekitsu This gospel to everyone not white and male, who unsurprisingly keep pushing the myth.

@Are0h "Freedom without equality is just privilege enshrined" -- Billy Bragg

@Are0h I find it strange that you have zero problems with what's inside the Code of Conduct, or pressure groups who have no interest in the project at hand.

Let's use the CoC everyone is talking about. The person pressing for it has strong political views and put them in the template model.

Should FOSS projects purposely screen contributors for their political stances? Should they issue political litmus tests before allowing membership? What about users?

@trayofbees @Are0h

yes, because the Contributor Covenant clearly prescribes a litmus test for participation *eyerolls*

@kaniini @Are0h

It does. You can't believe meritocracy is a thing. That's coming directly from who is pushing it. That's a political stance, not an egalitarian one.

@trayofbees @Are0h

please identify the exact sentence in the Contributor Covenant that prescribes a political litmus test

oh, that's right, you can't, because it doesn't actually exist

*goes back to eyerolling*

@kaniini @trayofbees Yeah, I gotta second this. The idea of a political litmus test as a description for decent behavior is gross hyperbole.

@trayofbees Who said I don't have any problems with it?

Everyone has strong political views.

I think every FOSS project is different and as such has different needs.

But I think we can all agree basic civility and respect is not a hard ask.

@Are0h I don't disagree with that. I work commercial, female CEO, and have pushed to get more black devs on staff given where my office is (PHL). But I also deal with a customer base located in deep Red areas of the US, even tho my company's primary devs are in blue zones. We're forced to separate politics because if we played sides we'd lose our income and rapidly.

@Are0h If nobody cared or had any respect they don't last on the payroll that long.

If it can be done in commercial, this shouldn't be hard to do in FOSS.

@trayofbees Yes, hence a code of conduct to enforce these things as there has been an issue with abusive and straight up bigoted behavior in these projects.

It's not immediately clear what you're arguing here because you seem to be conflating expectations for decency in community projects as a political stance and that idea is pure bullshit.

@trayofbees How is expecting basic civility and respect for other people a political view? Is that your premise?

@Are0h No, that's not my premise. The specific CoC that's being passed around has a problematic individual pushing for it who laced political views into it, got called out on it. That CoC is fine to base a new one from, but the meritocracy crap should be deleted.

Either way, it lacks specificity in unaccepted behavior which should be clarified before adopting it on a large project.

It matches the complaint of Mastodon CoCs that boil to "be nice to admin" and that's it.

@trayofbees Give me and example of what you mean.

Then that should be addressed.

We'll agree to disagree about that point.

@Are0h

Ok.

"Instances of abusive, harassing, or otherwise unacceptable behavior may be reported by contacting the project team at [INSERT EMAIL ADDRESS]. All complaints will be reviewed and investigated and will result in a response that is deemed necessary and appropriate to the circumstances."

Given your reading of this paragraph, what behavior is considered "unacceptable"?

o abuse
o harassment
o personal disagreements
o political views of contributors
o all of the above

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