@Are0h In Scrum you're supposed to have a product owner, who doesn't have to be (probably shouldn't be) a programmer. It seems like this structure lends itself well to not being coder-led, though it doesn't seem to work out that way much of the time because I don't think coders take that role sufficiently seriously.

@freakazoid This is a good point. A lot of code head have a hard time understanding their role as part of team.

Good projects aren't built in vacuum. This is a hard transition for a lot of programmers that are used to being isolated because no one understands what they are doing.

This is a hard bridge to gap b/c most people aren't going to understand programming, which leads to an under appreciation of that as well.

It's a hard balance to find.

@Are0h And even when the feedback is there it seems like it's likely to be ignored. Things like theming always come later if at all, and they're limited in what they can change.

I think this is a place where a different kind of application distribution could potentially help. The Smalltalk model in particular, or something like it since I don't really understand it that well: focus on APIs and give people a lot of control over the frontend.

@Are0h Of course, this doesn't help with architecture, since it's not just about giving people control over aesthetics, as we're seeing with the #ForkOff movement.

@freakazoid It doesn't, but it should. Design just isn't for the front end, which is what a lot of programmer miss. There is so much value in establish the visual flow of data so it makes sense to _everyone_ not just a guy sitting in a dark room.

One project I worked, I literally designed the whole API flow document so everyone could see how the system functioned and it made everything so much easier.

Design should be involved at at all steps. It really helps.

@Are0h I was thinking more just giving control to the user. In the case of, say, ActivityPub, as we've seen giving too much control to the subscriber at least is harmful. But in this case it's because the supposed control given to the publisher is just advisory.

@freakazoid Ideally, that's what APIs were supposed to be. Unfortunately we don't see many places implementing this division of labor, which is a shame.

And yeah, hard agree. I think we're seeing this play out a lot in the FOSS community where we see so many great idea coming out, but they look like shit and are hard to use.

I believe we're just seeing the limits of having programmers lead projects. They have their weakness just like everyone else.

@Are0h We had it at CouchBase, but the product owner and the CPO were both white men, as were most of our customers, so we weren't going to do anything interesting with that.

@freakazoid Yeah, it's a culture thing. It's hard because you have to think about it from the beginning and most white guys aren't going to do that.

What they don't realize is that they're literally building in a limitation to how good their product can be by not considering it.

As someone that picked up programming on their own, the ability to create something from nothing is very powerful. I can understand why coders think they should lead.

But this is just myopia. If you're just building something for yourself, that's fine, but if you're building some for other people, it _must_ be a collaborative effort with people that are not like you.

And I think we've seen enough platforms built from a singular experience and perspective.

@Are0h coding is like getting the garden set up; you put work down to get the seeds sprouting and the shade just right and the water flow okay, but when you're not looking, birds are gonna pick out the seeds, squirrels are gonna dig at the roots, deer will come in and trample everything to gnaw off the buds. and then you gotta think: did i make this garden just to grow myself some potatoes, or do i want to have a yard full of other lives that share my space?

@modgethanc That's a great analogy. Building great projects is very very similar that process.

@Are0h these are things I've learned from writing programs, managing teams, and alao gardening :)

@modgethanc Hard agree on everything. Just a beautiful observation.

@Are0h and then you figure out how to get the clover patch to take over a corner so the rabbits have something good to gnaw on, and you put up a fence around just your own tomato plants to ask the deer to leave them be, and you realize that the birds are actually picking worms off the kale, and actually life is more fun when you spend all your garden time troubleshooting for everyone that shows up, not just trying to defend what you thought it was supposed to be when you started

@Are0h seasons pass and you realize you've been reading about permaculture and trying to maintain native weeds to help out the pollenators and you've torn up all the grass and you recognize individual squirrels that like to hang out and heckle the chipmunk nest and long story short, you started out trying to build something according to your vision but as other people use it, you learned that there are things it could be that you never thought of, and isn't it this beautiful

@Are0h This part always stumps me. I grew up weird, with few "like me". If I made stuff, i had to be clear who it was for and what they wanted. This code/culture problem is everywhere, yes, but it's such hubris.

Clearly, there was a time when people expected computers to be magic and people had to push back and make the code and process more central and important. it seems that this could be the end result of that dynamic, as a historical trend. Too far now, though. Thoughts?

@c25l_ I mean, yeah I agree. Computers have become such an integral part of our lives, they are more like tools.

I think our progress with them is dependent on more people understanding them so we can get more ideas into the pool rather than keeping this mystique around them as if it is knowledge only a few people can have.

@Are0h A coder's singular vision does not scale.

@bstacey

Great quote.

@Are0h

@RussSharek @Are0h Thank you! ⭐️